Penn Quarter Building Permit Update (Gallery Tower, Vapiano, Printing Co)

RE: Vapiano…they took down all of the signage recently so I was wondering if it’s really coming to the neighborhood or not. Not that I’ve been to any of the other locations yet, but glad to see this is still happening.

Re: Vapiano,

The website is now listing the Chinatown location as opening in December 2008 on its locations page.

http://www.vapianointernational.com/location.html

interesting. no mention of residential in that there Gallery Tower project snippet.

PQ is overbuilt already with condos & apartments, many still empty & many more empty ones being built. Also, residential real estate market prices will continue dropping until at least 2010. Maybe the developer went with offices instead of residences.

Rome wasn’t built in a day.

The project involves 3 sites/buildings: offices (former Lei Garden & China Doll), old CVS/historic building, & condo (former Seafood restaurant).

My guess is that we’ll see a 7th St address in the future for the condo aspect of the project.

To ensure real vibrancy we actually need MORE people living downtown. Supply increased faster than demand, but in the long run downtown needs many, many more residents than even the empty condo buildings will hold.

#7, the problem is the “model” the city & developers created for downtown does not make sense. Yes, we need more people living downtown, far more people, but as you say, supply far exceeds demand, & will for years & years. Apparently there are not that many people who are willing to pay $500,000 & up to live downtown.
The only way out of the mess that I see is the construction of “affordable” housing – not for welfare people, or subsidized by the city, but good buildings that a cop or a teacher or someone making $40,000 – $70,000 can afford. All the marble this & concierge that are fine for people who can afford that & still want to live downtown, but that model has proved to be about 4,000 people. & many of the condos that are “occupied” are empty much of the time, owned by people or business who just use them part-time.
There simply are not many people who can afford to pay $500,000 & up & who also want to live downtown. Other than constructing some “affordable” housing, I see no way out of the current mess.

I agree Fred Mick, there has been too much building of upscale luxury condos and people have been living above their means for too long. Its time for a reality check for urban renewal. Its time for the neo-yuppies and rich empty nesters to open their debt ridden eyes.

#9, thank you for posting. The market has spoken here – there are about 4000 people who are willing to try to live the luxury life style downtown / in PQ. That’s it – & about half of those people [or at least a good number of them] are drowning in debt & won’t be here much longer. I know several myself. The only way to have more people live around here is to build some good buildings but cut out the silly ” amenities” [inanities is probably more accurate].

8, 9, and 10 very good points. I basically agree. We also need to find a way to build buildings that have larger units for families – I know the Clara Barton and Lafayette have lots of kids – many whose parents would like to stay downtown but condo fees on larger condos downtown are INSANE! Perhaps put more condos on top of office buildings, but make the model say the businesses are there to cover expenses for the condos to make it easier to have inhabitants in them (and not the condos taking it on the chin cause the offices are top dog). Perhaps let developers build buildings 3 stories taller than normal if those stories are condos that are sold, but super low condo fees cause business rents pay them, and set aside some for the cops and teachers, etc.

I am compelled to make a few comments.

I agree with the general tone that more downtown residents are needed to coalesce into a neighborhood. (let’s equate downtown with a geographically broadened PQ for a second). whether it’s the market forcing prices lower or developers setting aside units for low/middle income folks or a grocer coming in, the good news is that all of the above is happening.

prices = 1 BRs (w/out parking) are available in the $350K to $400K range down from their peak…less costly than some areas of DC but more costly than other areas
lower/middle income = CityVista has 20% of units set aside; for a 1 person household the cap is approx. $42K/yr income
grocer = CityVista Safeway is opening on Sept 12

the Downtown BID Q1 2008 report says there are 3,547 residential units built downtown since 1997. at 1.5 people per unit, that’s 5,320 residents. at 2 people per unit, that’s 7,094 residents. add the 5 blocks around the BID and you tack on another 4,440 units for a total of 7,987 units. there are a number of buildings built before 1997 not included in the above.

some of the buildings do share costs with the retail and commercial components of their development and it is up to the condo association boards to bring costs in those buildings in line with their residents’ desires. cutting amenities is one way to do so.

#12 I just signed on to say same re: 20% of CityVista set aside……and I know City Vista L had 1BR WITH pkg at close out at $320K – so WAY cheaper than peak. Short of the high condo fees, even their 2BR and 2BR + den units in the “L” are priced at what seem like robbery(cheap)! Of course, if other buildings downtown are any evidence, the “L” may have lower resale values than CityVista “K” simply because it is separate from the amenities(so maybe not so cheap in the long run)…that sure has happened at Lafayette and Clara Barton, though I do not understand why.

I agree with #12 & #13. I know some people who were looking in Silver Spring, Bethesda and Rockville for a condo. I was able to show them that at this time there are condos downtown with comparable prices. So if you are saying the demand isn’t there for people willing to pay downtown, it might just be because they don’t realize it is comparable in price to Bethesda, Silver Spring, Arlington, Rockville and other suburban areas,at least when you are comparing new condos to new condos.

don’t want to get too much into the ups and downs of specific condos but the L and the K are different from the Clara Barton and the Lafayette.

the L is physically a separate freestanding building from the K. you have to walk out of the L and down the alley or around the block past the Safeway and 5th Street Hardware to get to the K’s entrance and swimming pool.

the same is not true of the Clara Barton and the Lafayette which are in the same physical building and were originally conceived and constructed to be the same (rental) community by JPI, the developer. two different HOAs occupy the one edifice because of the way JPI ultimately decided to sell the building as condos and not rent them as apartments. the amenities are shared and equally accessible to both Lafayette and Clara Barton owners neither of which have to leave the building to get to them. I’m unaware of any difference in resale values but I don’t watch final sale prices that closely.

#15, the comparison #13 makes between the CityVista buidlings and the Lafayette and Clara Barton is faulty for the reasons you noted. Plus, I regularly receive the resale values for both the Clara Barton and Lafayette and have not seen any noticeable difference in the two condos. The statement #13 made regarding resale values also appears to be without merit.

I was under the impression that there is a walkway on sencond floor providing access across the alley from the “L” to the “K” and “V” complex. I know the walkway is there to provide access to the parking garage, but perhaps it is not contiguous. There is definitely a difference in final sold prices – at least for 1 bedroom units – between Clara Barton and Lafayette. Knew of and understand the set-up at CB/LF.

I definitely have to eat crow on my comment #15 as there was an error so I’ll offer an apology to PQer on the information on CityVista.

I confirmed that the L does have a walkway to the parking garage and you can get to the K without going outside. you go down into the parking area from the L’s walkway and over to the K’s elevator bank and back up. not as nice as walking through the halls but you don’t need to walk outside in your flip flops.

time will tell how all the buildings fare and multiple factors play into the equation such as location, amenities, financial condition of the HOA/management companies, % of owners versus residents, construction quality, size of units, etc.

any more building specific comparisons, comments and questions need to be directed to your respective realtors.

Many new construction 1BR are running $350-400K (with parking) downtown and in MVT now. City Vista, Yale Lofts, Madrigal seem to be hovering in that $355-$375K range. As other posters have mentioned that’s in the same vicinity as new construction in Bethesda, Silver Spring, Courthouse, Columbia Heights, Clarendon, U Street, etc… I don’t see any reason to single out downtown.

I rented 10 years after college before buying a condo this year. First with college buddies then in a group house with craiglist people. This allowed me to keep rents low, pay off my student/car loans early, save money for a downpayment and waited until my career progressed to the point I made a more ample salary.

If you only make $40K a year then living alone and paying a downtown mortgage solo may not be for you. That’s life. New construction is expensive and must provide a solid return otherwise construction isn’t how investors would be expending their capital. If you want modest housing expense but also live near metro than you have to make some sacrifices. I certainly did to get where I am. Either you need roommates or you need to comprise from your ideal location. There are places by RFK or Petworth that are a little older and have common laundry rooms rather than W/D in unit.